Posted by giveawayboy on March 06, 2005 at 03:27:50:
In Reply to: Re: More than you wanted to know. posted by marcos on March 02, 2005 at 23:01:58:
: : : : Well, no one has tried to rouse any beasts in a long time, and in fact I've pretty much given it up myself, but all the nostalgic talk made me think...ah what the heck, so here goes...poke-poke:
: : : : I think Nationalism is a bad idea that should be abandoned. It seems it hasn't done much in history but lead to contention and suffering by creating a thousand 'us and them' complexes. There are political models that work without it and have been tried. And there was recently a big feature in Time magazine about a culture of international businessmen who exist as world citizens with little regard for nationality. So I say there's little chance for real peace as long as nations exist. It is only xenophobia and selfishness that keeps us from embracing such an idea on a large scale.
: : : : Any thoughts?
: : : ~All I can say is I've thought that way for a long time that Nationalism and Patriotism are contributors to war. I do not feel that I should be all faithfull to any one country. actually, there's more I want to say bout this but I got to go for now.
: : Well I am so depressed about the state of humanity I think I have lost hope. You know, if we could end all nationalist divisions, humans would just create new factions to facilitate and legitimate their hatred. It is more a product of the human condition than any political organization. Can anything really change the human condition? I know God works redemptively in individual lives and calls us to bring that hope to others. Still, right now that seems at best like a tiny island barely afloat in a vast sea of anxiety, misery, and bitterness.
: : I am depressed...
: : I have never been this depressed in my life. I do not know what is happening to me, but it is scary. Maybe it is all this sickness I am fighting now. Maybe it is all the minimalist, reductionist, atheistic scholasticism I am swimming in daily. Whatever it is, it seems like a dark cloud is engulfing me and I can't shake it.
: : I miss our fellowships. I miss the songs to God. I am just hurting.
: : I miss the fire. I want to be filled.
: : I am praying fervently, feverishly, desperately. Pray with me please.
: : I am still sick. I got prescriptions tonight. Maybe when I am better physically life will look more hopeful.
: ~I will pray for you. I agree. I think I wanted to say that in addition to nationalism and patriotism, religion seems to be another cause of strife. and the selfishness of man and its desire for profit over its brother/sister rights, man's hypocrisy, are all too real. At this point I feel like I have been lied to for so many years by what I came to believe as christianity.
: I dont know enough about that International Businessmen group, but I do not trust a globalization of liberal capitalism either. Language is also another barrier among peoples. I feel more hopeful about things by some accords between Venezuela and Brasil and Argentina, for example, and hope for more equality and justice, for that's another issue, within nations themselves, inequality, injustice, ethnic differences, etc. I do still believe that God in us, but it seems that God must be one that transcends, transcends, transcends all religions, politics, and other divisions.
Indeed this is a great string. Thanks for starting it John. First, my comments on depression. Steve, I'm glad you shared about being depressed. It seems that too many people do not want to discuss this. I'm glad we can. I hope we can bear one another's burdens here, though I'm not quite sure how to do that with depression. Perhaps we can have hope for each other and take on some of the depression and confusion of others. No sure working theory here. Just glad to see you talking about this. This makes you more real to me. I'll definitely light a candle for you.
As far as Nationalism is concerned, I'm with Steve on one point, that no matter where we draw the line, nationalism, or any other 'ism', we still have to confront our own human nature somewhere along the way. The time for nations is fading fast, as communications and emerging economies continue to restructure the face of the globe as we know it. Although I have no problem with national fervor or patriotism, I do have problems with a xenophobic kind of nationalism, the kind that sees US as better than or against THEM. After reading lots of Wendell Berry and Norm Mailer, not to mention Senator Robert Byrd, I don't have much hope in the current direction of the United States. I'm not anti-American by any means, but if we continue to support an economic system that is destroying the fabric of our country, eventually we'll have no more country to love. I truly do love my country and consider myself, at least in some sense, patriotic, but this is not blind nationalism and I am not above relocating to Vancouver or Europe or any place else. I think nations can have a sense of being their own place, even perhaps having sacred callings bestowed upon them. If I didn't believe this, I'd have to remit many of my views concerning Israel for instance. Still, I do not feel that any nation (Israel as proof) is perfect. Many have committed grave social sins and injustices. America is not exempt. I tend to agree with John. Although I believe we can and should love the nations we live in, I do not feel we owe any country or government unconditional allegiance. To be truly patriotic we should offer a strong critique as part of our patriotism. We should seek for ways to understand other nations and tribes and peoples. We should not allow our governments to remain comfortable in their hubris and where possible, we should find ways to promote global understanding and build up strong local communities. I know that old 'new age' slogan: THINK GLOBALLY! ACT LOCALLY! Well, what can I say? Sometimes the 'new agers' get it right! Reading THE HISTORY OF THE BASQUE PEOPLE by Mark Kurlansky, you come across some of the worst instances of Spanish nationalism run amok. See Guernica for instance. See various executions and tortures. If American government continues unchecked and if big businesses continue to grow without regard for local communities, what kind of nation will we have? As a United States citizen, I have grave concerns about this and tend away from nationalism.