Posted by giveawayboy on March 30, 2005 at 12:18:22:
In Reply to: Re: Great post John! posted by cav on March 30, 2005 at 06:47:07:
John: I think alot of "straight" guys get hyper straight for fear of being thought gay, or in reaction to what they may really feel inside. But either way the fluid idea is far better I think.
Bill: I agree on both points.
John: I also like the implications of divorcing sexual identity from orientation, etc.
Bill: Me too. This way for instance a person could be homosexually oriented but also not stigmatized by others of their own gender. I'd love to see a bunch of straight Kinsey 1½s or 2s and Kinsey 5-6s just being friends, getting along, w no thought of sexuality. Why can't men just do that without all that fear.
John: I just couldn't click with guys.
Bill: Me either, most of my life. When I was in college, I met Nate and Rob and then began spending most of my time with men. Most of you met me in those years. Then I was swining all the way to masculine connexions. Still, that was a sort of balancing act. Now I'm more comfortable with both male and female companions.
John: I know that in Japan, such things are more common, with a whole subculture surrounding bishonen, or "beautiful boys". They are very much attracted to women, but do often push toward the middle of the scale, the difference is that far from being macho and manly, they are very effiminate in dress and action. Many young guys here even wear makeup to enhance the smooth features they already genetically posess.
Bill: This always reminds me of DURAN DURAN for some reason. Actually, this would go in a whole different direction for me and my views of androgeny. But that might be a whole separate string and since it might go beyond orientation issues into gender issues (and I know could be a sensitive area for some of us) I will let my thoughts gel first.
John: As for a woman's side, I'd love to see a post from someone, I don't care where you fall on the scale. For what I think, I imagine that the same opinions would hold: that the fluid outlook would open much more room to relax for the "tomboy" or the "butch" type girls. And maybe even a place for those old ties of close female relationships to open again without fear of being labeled. I've noticed that many young girls jump on the lesbian identity because it lets them enjoy close friendships without the pressure and fear the dating world can leave on girls.
Bill: This is good too. I love the freedom women allow themselves to interact on close range w other women. I don't feel this indicates lesbianism. I love that. I wish men would allow themselves the same freedom. I'm convinced that what many supposedly 'gay' men want is this kind of freedom and contact. Contact is a huge thing. Being present to people. People want this and on some level I think need it from others of their own sex. This has nothing to do with eroticism. Also, I love 'butch' girls or 'tomboys'. The kind of women I am most attracted to are those kinds. Like the recent boyish Keira Knightley on the cover of Elle. I already liked her as a soccer player in BEND IT LIKE BECKHAM, and in that movie she was supposed a lesbian because of her close associations with Jasminder, the central charcter. But, now she's sporting a great Pat Benatar haircut. Here's the deal though. I never saw 'butch' or 'tomboy' gals as NOT FEMALE. I don't confuse them with men. I really just love the variety of ways a woman can look. And I like this same fluidity of appearance in men too, and I don't have to think that a beautiful man is NOT a man. He's just more elegant. Also, I like to be able to see the more traditional Marlon Brando or Paul Newman kind of masculinity as elegant and beautiful as well. I love it when girls come back from a Melissa Etheridge or Cher show in their jeans and TShirts and being all excited!
John: And speaking of kids, I think teens are probably the worst hit by the polarization of sexuality. While it has become rather vogue to accept other orientations or "come out" early so to speak, I think the paradigm of either/or forces young people to make a choice that doesn't need to be made, especially at such a confusing time as when hormones are off balance and natural development has us seeking our identity and place in the world.
Bill: True, I have now heard of kids 'coming out' when they are let's say 10. Not cool. They haven't even gotten to the stage where kids used to become sexually aware and they are already locking into culturally generated cubbyholes. I am so glad that I didn't have such pressures in the 70's and 80's.
John: In another light, this idea has great implications in opening up male-female relationships, which are currently hampered by (or driven by as the case may be) sexual tension. Why are so many "straight" women involved in the gay male culture? I think it's because they can feel safe and unpressured to be close friends without it having to lead to more.
Bill: You are so right. I have seen this time and again.
John: Personally, in every relationship I think we need more physicality. People need to be touched. It is fundamental, and anthropology has long recognized the role of grooming as a bonding and calming mechanism.
Bill: Agreed, but I also realize not everyone is open to that. I feel that after some educational experiences and trust-building even those people might open more to it. I love how women groom each other. Men sometimes do that but usually it's gay men. I don't think straight men realize that they can have that kind of contact, I mean, work w each other at close range. You know, not just grooming, but other stuff. I do know men who do primp each other though. And they aren't all gay. In fact, where alot of this plays out is in the gym where guys often help each other primp the body so to speak. Guys help each other out with their sets, muscles, etc. I've seen guys giving backrubs, holding each other for situps, etc. Spotters. I've also seen guys who help each other trim beards into shape, style hair, etc. Girls are more open here, but guys, esp w this metrosexual phase, are coming around. But even the term metrosexual shows cultures link of masculinity and beauty and w homosexuality. I say, why does who we are sexually attracted to equate to having a sense of beauty. Can't a guy who wants a wife and family also love beauty? Why is that a gay thing?
John: But in our sex-obsessed culture, this is only possible in a romantic relationship...or in young girls and gay culture.
Bill: True. However, I feel that men are coming around.
John: But just imagine how much more at ease we would all feel if we felt secure enough to touch our friends. To hug or kiss, or simply sit comfortably in someone's house. Do you know how many movies I watched at Steve's house where people were packed in like rats, but no one wanted to touch anyone they weren't related to? I used to watch the little slides, and readjustments, and apologies if someone grazed another. It was ridiculous. It would be so much better if everyone could just relax. I mean if I lean on Bill's leg, I'm not gay, and if my female friend slumps over on my shoulder, we're not doing anything illicit. Thankfully my wife and I are of the same mind on this, so that's never been an issue for us.
Bill: I didn't want to edit this down. Good stuff. When Marcos and I were at Steve's house watching movies we shared a blanket. When I used to go out w Brasilian friends on the weekends us guys were really touchy, but those guys aren't as affected by our American fears as much. I guess when you have four guys living in a one bedroom house, touching is not something that you are scared of. It's something you enjoy. Companionship I mean. I have other frineds from Lebanon, Egypt and India. These guys get misunderstood for gay sometimes since they like to look at each other face to face when they talk. Also, they hug and even walk w arms around each other. Just about everyone of them thinks about women, are sexually attrcted to women though they can see and really appreciate male beauty and cultivate affection w other men. This is normal for their cultures. Many of them will have wives and devoted long-term male companions who are usually old school friends or even work mates. In fact, some of these guys even sleep in the same beds. It's normal for their culture.
John: Lastly, in a totally frivolous adjunct to the topic, the idea of fluid sexuality opens up far more interesting possibilities for personal style. As many know, I've always tried to define my own style apart from store-bought marketed trends. Many of my clothing designs were alterations of women's patterns. They just had better lines that worked well on someone of my build. And since I beleive that our outward appearance should reflect what's going on inside, this is important. So guys, it's time to step it up here. It doesn't have to mean you're gay!
Bill: I think David Bowie proves this.
John: (Obviously, subcultures that we have operated in, as is typical of the underground, were far ahead on these issues, but it's time to take it out to the mainstream. We need a bumper sticker or t-shirt or something.)
Bill: True, this is one thing I always noted about our gang. Jason is a case in point, and Jonvon. Those guys always related to me in masculine ways, but with a closeness and almost romantic flair that was unabashed and even a sort of celebration. You and I know that we feel this between us too. One of my fondest memories was Jason and I sitting in a Chinese restaurant, with Nancy present, and the three of us talking about the attractiveness of various people there in the restaurant. It was neat to see how much Jason was comfortable with talking about the men in the room. It was cute. He was picking out guys for me to give my opinion on. I have no feeling that makes him gay. He's just Jason. I'm just Bill. Nancy's just Nancy.
Cheers!