Posted by cav on November 16, 2004 at 10:05:16:
In Reply to: My take on it -- not quite as long ;-) posted by PS on November 16, 2004 at 09:09:24:
Great post. I too was thinking about the relevance of unclearness to running a race. I've also noticed how I myself along with everyone tend to jump over difficult parts by switching to a veiled attempt to make the words not literal...in other words, "that's not what he really means..."
I think it's important to realize too that we filter everything, not just through our intellect, but through our culture. So even beyond the language issues, we face the fact that we interpret the meaning very differently, even when accurately translated.
And just for fun, let's try your document theory:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men were created equal..."
Derivations taken from Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary:
We- it means I and the rest of my group from old high German words of the same meaning...but it ca nalso mean "I" when used by sovereigns or writers to keep an impersonal nature. Thus we could argue that Jefferson meant it in this sense.
hold- related to Latin celer, meaning "rapid" or Greek klonos meaning "agitation"
these- plural of this, meaning is pretty straight through all derivations
truths- plural of truth from Old English treowe, meaning "faithful". Therefore we could say that he meant something or someone who held to certain beliefs.
self- from Old High German selb meaning an intensive pronoun. Intensive can mean "of, relating to or marked by an increase in strength or intensity, which has to do with tension...ad nauseum"
evident- from Latin videre meaning "to see"
that- a demonstrative pronoun
all- the whole amount, or as much as possible
men- can be the plural of man, but also a prefix akin to the greek for "moon" indicating "month"
are- pretty simple, form of "to be", but also can refer to "area" in the metric system.
created- past of create, from Latin creare related to Greek koros for "excess in abundance"
equal- from Latin aequus meaning "level"
Therefore the famous line might have actually meant, "I rapidly agitate these believers to be things intensely seen; that as many months as possible are excessively level."
Wow...sounds like the Amplified Bible...have fun with that one.
: Greek word studies will lead you astray much of the time. Face it, you don't speak koine Greek or know what the word meant to Paul or his hearers 2000 years ago (nor do I), and the etymology of the word (what it "comes from") may be fully irrelevant--it may have NOTHING at all to do with the meaning of the word as Paul uses it. This is the case with a multitude of our words used today! The origins have nothing to do with how we use them. What if someone took all the words you used and ascribed meanings to them derived from their origins? The result would be ridiculous. I'll have to actually do this sometime with a widely understood public document just to demonstrate the flaws of this approach. (...which theologians are so famous for. I would also bet you are using a theological work like Vines Expository Dictionary or the like.)
: Now here is context: Would athletic (Olympic) metaphors have central themes of hiddenness and unclearness? I doubt it; there's no apparent connection I can see. Such metaphors must have apparent meanings that all hearers can relate to or they are useless. The preferred translation "uncertainty" makes much more sense in an athletic context, especially seen in terms of lack of commitment or half-hearted action. If Paul juxtaposes temperance/discipline with uncertainty, there must be a connection in the athletic context that is clear.
: The preceding was just offered as an example of the flaws of "word studies." My main point was the one first presented at top. :-)