Posted by PS on November 16, 2004 at 09:09:24:
In Reply to: Athletic Reference (a little long) posted by J on November 15, 2004 at 17:08:00:
: "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone whoe competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they doe it to obtain a perishable crown. Therefore I run thus; not with uncertainty. Thus I fight; not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
: I Cor 9:24 - 27
: One teaching I have heard based on these scriptures states that we must be self-disciplined and bring our bodies into subjection so we will not lose his salvation.
Sic et non. (Yes and no.) I, like you, would disagree with too narrow or skewed an interpretation of "beating our bodies into subjection," etc. But regarding your apparent dismissal of the possibility of loss of salvation being Paul's meaning here, I am not so sure.
We must always ask ourselves: Could we be running from clear and simple truths into elaborate "contexts" we use to cloud up the meanings we don't like?
You have darted so quickly away from the original scripture into "context" and word studies. Take time to read the verse itself. Paul is certainly speaking of the possibility that he could be disqualified after preaching to others. Now if this does not refer to salvation, what then would he be losing? You really cannot convincingly eliminate salvation as the object, as there are other verses where this possibility is implicit if not explicit. As far as the idea that Paul speaks of losing the Corinthians' respect, for instance, why does Paul exhort THEM to run in the way necessary to win the prize? If this race is all about Paul and/or his ministry to them (or any other church), this makes no sense at all. He makes it clear from the second sentence you quoted that this metaphor applies to the hearers as well, and that there is a real response they should demonstrate in how THEY run the race.
Sorry to throw a wrench in the gears. ;-)
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Now, for those total masochists (like you, Jason) who want more, I will address something I cut out of my response above. You need not read on, poor soul who has had enough already. Cease! Why wouldst thou take fire into thine own bosom?
: "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone whoe competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they doe it to obtain a perishable crown. Therefore I run thus; not with uncertainty. Thus I fight; not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
: I Cor 9:24 - 27
: The Greek word, translated 'temperate,' comes from the meaning "self-control" or "disciplined." The Greek word, translated 'uncertainty,' comes from the meaning "hidden" or "unclear" [as opposed to how we might translate that to mean "doubt"].
Greek word studies will lead you astray much of the time. Face it, you don't speak koine Greek or know what the word meant to Paul or his hearers 2000 years ago (nor do I), and the etymology of the word (what it "comes from") may be fully irrelevant--it may have NOTHING at all to do with the meaning of the word as Paul uses it. This is the case with a multitude of our words used today! The origins have nothing to do with how we use them. What if someone took all the words you used and ascribed meanings to them derived from their origins? The result would be ridiculous. I'll have to actually do this sometime with a widely understood public document just to demonstrate the flaws of this approach. (...which theologians are so famous for. I would also bet you are using a theological work like Vines Expository Dictionary or the like.)
Now here is context: Would athletic (Olympic) metaphors have central themes of hiddenness and unclearness? I doubt it; there's no apparent connection I can see. Such metaphors must have apparent meanings that all hearers can relate to or they are useless. The preferred translation "uncertainty" makes much more sense in an athletic context, especially seen in terms of lack of commitment or half-hearted action. If Paul juxtaposes temperance/discipline with uncertainty, there must be a connection in the athletic context that is clear.
The preceding was just offered as an example of the flaws of "word studies." My main point was the one first presented at top. :-)