Posted by giveawayboy on March 31, 2005 at 12:58:51:
In Reply to: Re: androgeny and gender issues... posted by cav on March 31, 2005 at 03:52:36:
John: Great direction. I love it when posts spawn other posts. As for myself, I wouldn't call it androgeny per se, as that makes me think of blurring the differences between sexes, as crossing the lines. I think maybe this is what you are getting at.
Bill: I think of it as the fullness of gender as opposed to the blurring of gender. Perhaps I need to find a new word for that.
John: I think there is something really cool when a guy can wear a skirt and look like a guy in a skirt. It has a lot to do with attitude, and physical carriage. I also think it's really sexy when a girl wears guys clothes in certain styles (I hate suits).
Bill: True.
John: And I have long recognized how traditionally "female" cuts and techniques, such as darts, and certain waisting techniques can really work on a man with the right frame. ...on a Marcos, or Jason type, they can really highlight that masculinity in a cross line sort of way.
Bill: Yeah, Marcos has some really great shirts. They allow him to display a kind of elegance.
John: And since you mentioned Brad Pitt, I like him alot. In as much as he is a pretty decent actor with a lot of range, and personally he has this great "who cares" attitude. I remember when he did a magazine shoot wearing dresses and skirts. He really didn't look gay at all. And his face said, "yeah, I'm in a dress...so what."
Bill: Yeah, actually those photos, which I own, really helped me to get past the misinterpretations of the Old Testament which had rattled in my brain for years. I started to see the admonition for men not to wear women's clothes, not as applying to a certain 'cut of fabric' but to an intention to mar the image of God in men and women. So, suddenly I just saw Brad in a dress and I was like Yeah, I get it. It wasn't about that at all. The pictures conveyed an unabashed and secure masculinity.
John: He does commercials in Japan, and he always speaks Japanese. With a great accent I might add. ...I'm not sure if he actually knows the language, but the presentation in the ad is that he is speaking to Japanese in their own language. That goes a long way here, and really gains respect in my book.
Bill: Just one more thing to love. I don't mind being a fan. I know people think I just like him since he's a pretty boy, but actually his acting is quite good. I like him for both. He was super in 12 Monkeys and Fight Club, well, it was excellent!
John: For my part, I've already said I use female designs in my custom clothes, but I also buy women's clothes when they fit the look I need and I don't think anyone who saw me ever thought I was wearing something that looked gay, did they? (Tell me if so, I need the feedback.) I bet most people never even knew it. Sometimes it didn't work. I did this one alteration on a shirt based on a Japanese design I saw. It laced up the chest and had a wide circular neck, but the cut was wrong and it kept falling off my shoulder like some kind of flashdance gear. I had to give that one up. It works on Kathy, but I couldn't pull that one off.
Bill: Man, if I showed you pictures of half of my friends you wouldn't know which ones were straight and gay. That speaks back to the Kinsey string and the fluidity thing.
John: Anyway, to bring this around to some sort of continuity to the board as a whole, I think this sort of creativity and experimentation is and should be part and parcel of the Christian experience.
Bill: True, I feel that any truly creative act or work presumes or hopes for or points to another world. I feel that Christians are entrusted with a mystical stewardship in this regard. We should be most interested in things of 'the Kingdom'.
John: I know I spent many years trying to distance myself from what was recognizably Christian due to the negative stereotyping that brought. I thought, maybe they need to see we aren't all like that. But I often got looks like, "If you're just like me then what the hell do I need your faith for?" But in that time I've learned to step out of the mainstream, and even out of the fringe into areas that are untred. Now after living here where I am allowed to talk of my faith in public with no backlash, I have learned that much of the reason I can expand is my faith. When I return to America, I hope to keep that boldness to say, "because I'm a Christian" with no complex rationalization (and I can rationalize the Spirit right down the toilet...I'm telling you."
Bill: Yeah, I think we too often see our styles or actions as supports to our faith and not as flowing from it. I think we need to return to a fundamental view of the Incarnation which says ALL IS HOLY BECAUSE GOD TOOK IT UP INTO HIMSELF. HE SACRALIZED ALL OF EXISTENCE. Then everything is a gift to the holy. Everything exists out of worship to God who is the reason for each thing's existence and nature.
John: Take what you believe and claim it for what it is to others. When questioned about your style, your art, your worldview, tell people unapologetically where it comes from.
Bill: This is what I liked about Andy Warhol. He was brutally honest in this way. He never cowered at people questioning his Byzantine Catholic faith. He may have been at odds with it, but he did not see the need to deny it. He attended liturgies and he devoted himself publicly to the images of Christ and the Holy Virgin. Good for Andy!
John: I just recently saw Wind Talkers, which over all I didn't like (too much war and not enough development), but there was this great line where Nicholas Cage says to Adam Beach, "(you won't freeze up again) because your buddy rubbed ash on your head?" To which Beach replies, "yeah, because my buddy rubbed ash on my head." He has this dead serious look that says 'you have no idea of the substance behind what you said.' It was the most powerful line in the movie. The foolish confounding the wise.
Bill: Amen! I totally get that! Man John, this kind of dialogue excites me. I hope that others will feel free to enter in. Perhaps it's just something you and I are interested in though. I hope not. I can't wait to see if anyone else has any thoughts concerning the Kinsey string or this one. Or related topics of their own.